wizkid64

No Sports here.....

I'm going to go out on a limb here and guess you're not a liberal.

That said, to think that anything Bush has done in his tenure wasn't somewhat motivated by trying to help the rich, big companies, and his "good ole boys" is naive. Look at the record profits by Big Oil, and "OH MY GOD!"... we are paying record prices at the pump.

How many billions have we thrown away in the "war" (which I use loosely) in Iraq up to this point for what? I've heard all the excuses. Supposed connection to Al-Qaida, supposed terrorist camps, the dreaded WMD's, suspected Iraqi Nuclear Program... all of which were proven false. Was Saddam bad? Yes... that's a given, but it's not our job to decide who gets to be the leader of each country in the world. In the mean time, Halliburton and all of it's investers (and we all know who's on THAT list!) continue to get rich.

I don't think I need to mention what this "war" costs us in Americans, we are all very aware of that.

Unfortunitely, we can't just "quit" now... agreed. But we DO have to learn a very important lesson, which apparently wasn't learned in the past (i.e. Vietnam, Korea, and as you mentioned, Germany), we have to stop playing World Police. That has cost us as Americans more over the years than these tax cuts and cut removals you are complaining about (not just cash, but lives, time, investment over time, etc...).

I don't consider myself "liberal" or a Democrat, I don't like the idea of being forced into the "you're either with us or against us" mentality of the political parties. I would consider myself middle of the road as I agree with some policies from both schools of thought.

All that being said, I would ask you to look at the big picture, my friend. Yes, tax cut removals may force the middle class to pay a little more each year in taxes, but what will the billions of dollars spent on this "war" do to America, and Americans, over time?
How much time?
How much longer?
How much more money?
How many more lives?

Just think what all these billions of dollars could have been used for, instead of making the military contract suppliers' pockets fatter.

Just think of what all the fine, young Americans who have given and will give their lives for this "war" could have done for America and the World if given the chance to live out their life. I tip my hat to all the service men and women who have made the personal choice to risk their lives in the line of duty, so I have the chance to sit here at home and type this post, but I have to ask what;s more important...

being upset that our "Democratic Congress" is removing tax cuts that may cost me a little more each year in taxes...

or how our President (and Legislative branch of government) are usinig their responsibilty to the American people in regards to the control and decisions of how to use our said taxes and the priceless lives of our military...

No Sports here.....

"That said, to think that anything Bush has done in his tenure wasn't somewhat motivated by trying to help the rich, big companies, and his "good ole boys" is naive. Look at the record profits by Big Oil, and "OH MY GOD!"... we are paying record prices at the pump."

This has nothing to do with what you are paying at the pump. Are you aware that nearly 60% of the price you pay at the pump is government taxes? You want the price of gas to go down? Stop electing officials that always raise taxes.

"How many billions have we thrown away in the "war" (which I use loosely) in Iraq up to this point for what? I've heard all the excuses. Supposed connection to Al-Qaida, supposed terrorist camps, the dreaded WMD's, suspected Iraqi Nuclear Program... all of which were proven false. Was Saddam bad? Yes... that's a given, but it's not our job to decide who gets to be the leader of each country in the world. In the mean time, Halliburton and all of it's investers (and we all know who's on THAT list!) continue to get rich."

Actually, ties to Al-Qaida have been established. WMD's are a matter of perception. 15,000 lbs of mustard gas loaded shells were found outside Kirkuk in November of '05, I believe it was. Didn't get a lot of attention because the liberal media didn't find it news worthy or a dangerous amount. However, less than 1,000 pounds of the same gas killed over 5,000 Kurds. Doing the math, thats enough gas to potentially kill about 75 million people. Just how much does it take to be considered a WMD? Just because it isn't nuclear, doesn't make it not dangerous.
You're right, we don't get to decide the leader of every country in the world, and we aren't deciding the leader there either. We simply removed one that was indeed a danger to his own countrymen, definatly his neighboring countries, and most likely most of the world.

"But we DO have to learn a very important lesson, which apparently wasn't learned in the past (i.e. Vietnam, Korea, and as you mentioned, Germany), we have to stop playing World Police."

You can leave Germany off that list, we won that war. What we did was forgot our lessons we did learn during that war. In Korea and Vietnam, we adopted more liberal thinking and started to worry too much about collateral damage.  As we continue to do in Iraq. War is h*ll and people die. What was different about Korea, Vietnam, and now Iraq? I can guarantee you, we drop the bomb in Korea, Vietnam, and Iraq, those wars all end differently. It's a horrible thought, innocent people dying, but it happens. "The needs of the many out-weigh the needs of the few".

"All that being said, I would ask you to look at the big picture, my friend. Yes, tax cut removals may force the middle class to pay a little more each year in taxes, but what will the billions of dollars spent on this "war" do to America, and Americans, over time? Just think what all these billions of dollars could have been used for, instead of making the military contract suppliers' pockets fatter."

That's a wonderful notion, but government economics don't work that way. If that money weren't spent on the war, it wouldn't have been spent anywhere here. That money was allocated specifically for that purpose, and would not have been allocated for any other reason. Ask yourself why liberals tend to raise taxes. It is to fund current government programs and create new ones. What this means is an ever increasing bigger government. A government that gets its fingers deeper and deeper into your everyday personal life. Now they want government sponsored health care. Do you really want your government involved in your health care? No thank you!

"Just think of what all the fine, young Americans who have given and will give their lives for this "war" could have done for America and the World if given the chance to live out their life."

I can't think of one single thing they could have done better here than giving their life to spread the cause of liberty and freedom to other people. Like I said, loss of life is a terrible thing, but freedom is never free.

No Sports here.....

This has nothing to do with what you are paying at the pump. Are you aware that nearly 60% of the price you pay at the pump is government taxes? You want the price of gas to go down? Stop electing officials that always raise taxes.

Yet the CEO's and investors keep making record profits.

Didn't get a lot of attention because the liberal media didn't find it news worthy or a dangerous amount. However, less than 1,000 pounds of the same gas killed over 5,000 Kurds. Doing the math, thats enough gas to potentially kill about 75 million people

My question, if it was such a serious find, didn't the military use it to their advantage and hold another press conferance to show it. Kinda like the one they had to show the "mobile WMD lab trucks" that never really existed. Powel did look good on TV, though.

We simply removed one that was indeed a danger to his own countrymen, definatly his neighboring countries, and most likely most of the world

Precisley my point. It's not our job to remove other world leaders, unless they DIRECTLY provikeus to war, which Hussein DID NOT do. I've already stated he was BAD (I completely agreed with freeing Kuwait) but to invade a country who has never directly attacked our shores (don't even bring up our planes patrolling Iraq airspace, I wouldn't consider shooting a rocket at our fighters in their airspace and act of war, although wrong and extremely stupid) is plain out bullying. That's precisely why most of the people over there hate us. Not that it matters, but if we wanted to, why wasn't Castro removed from cuba? We could have blown that country out of the water. You wouldn't have considered him "a danger to his own countrymen, definatly his neighboring countries,"?

That's a wonderful notion, but government economics don't work that way. If that money weren't spent on the war, it wouldn't have been spent anywhere here. That money was allocated specifically for that purpose, and would not have been allocated for any other reason. Ask yourself why liberals tend to raise taxes. It is to fund current government programs and create new ones.

Twist it anyway you want to make the books look good, money spent is money spent. It all goes to the "National Debt" which has effects EVERYWHERE when it comes to American interests. I have to ask the question that if all this money wasn't spent on the war, where would the Dollar be right now? It's crashing faster than ever before, and I'm sure ALOT of that has to do with our debt, our expenditures, and our reserves; all of which have become increasingly worse through these billions we've spent on this "war"

. Like I said, loss of life is a terrible thing, but freedom is never free.

I agree freedom isn't free, but we're talking about OUR freedom. I've talked to MANY veterans of this "war" who have come back and are EXTREMELY upset at the fact that their friends are losing their lives for a cause that we have no business in. It's not our fight, it Iraq's and because they are too busy fighting with themselves, they can't get a "democratic" Govt installed. Democracy isn't just a process, it's an idea and a state of mind. If that state of mind doesn't exist in the people and their leadership, it will never work. We are a gigantic police force over there, plain and simple. If we leave, they will fall into civil war (THEIR civil war. We had one and it shaped our country to waht it is today) If we stay, we continue to waste money, time, resources, and most importantly...lives.

I can't think of one single thing they could have done better here than giving their life to spread the cause of liberty and freedom to other people.

Yeah, that's a nobel idea... try to explain it to the men and women that have been there, talked to the people, and have been spit on and shot at by the SAME people we are trying to spread the cause of liberty and freedom to.

No Sports here.....

"Yet the CEO's and investors keep making record profits."

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't the point of having a business to make a profit? Your anger here is misdirected. The biggest issue here is our governments greed and need to tax, not the business owner.


"I've talked to MANY veterans of this "war" who have come back and are EXTREMELY upset at the fact that their friends are losing their lives for a cause that we have no business in. It's not our fight,"

As have I. I know over 100 of these people personally, and none of them have stated anything you refer to in your post. As far as the not our fight comment, I refer you again to our Declaration of Independence and our Constitution that says otherwise. They do not refer to all Americans, they refer to all men. No gray area there.

"My question, if it was such a serious find, didn't the military use it to their advantage and hold another press conferance to show it. Kinda like the one they had to show the "mobile WMD lab trucks" that never really existed. Powel did look good on TV, though."

They did hold one, and it did make the news. It was just buried quickly to limit the exposure. The media doesn't want joe public having any kind of optimism toward the war. It does not further their agenda. I'm not a conspiracy nut, this isn't hard to see, if you want to. Watch the news channels. Don't you ever wonder why different stories sound so differently on different channels? It's because they take a story, keep the truth at its core, then twist it until its truth is unrecognizable so it fits the opinion that particular news channel wants you to obtain from it.

The rest of the arguments are a point of perspective. I'll admit, it depends on what you choose to believe. I just know, after being around as long as I have (not that I'm ancient), I want nothing to do with a party that has always supported bigger government, higher taxes, removing God from our government (seperation of church and state does not exist in our Constitution as it has been stated), and political correctness to the point of insanity.

Thank you again for posting!

No Sports here.....

I agree that different media outlets have an agenda. My point about the gas is that there was no big show put on in congress, as there was for the trailers. The military, and president, also have an agenda. You can't deny that and to think otherewise is naive. Do the Democrats... yse, hence my resistance to "join a party". I'll vote for who I want, regardless of party. Personally, I was pushing for Huckabee this year. I really like him.

I have one brother-in-law who just returned from Irag 6 months ago (thank God) and a second who just left a few weeks ago. The first's unit did security in different towns and palaces (of course, now base of operations for our generals!) and he and ALL of the guys from his unit that I talked to have told me numerous stories of being hated by the Iraqi Nationals... no, not all, but the over-whelming majority.

And the "point of business to make a profit" argument... true, but there are laws to protect us, the consumer. If you think that there's nothing shady going on in their offices, again... naive. ENRON anyone?

You hate big government, I hate big business... potAto, potato...

No Sports here.....

"If you think that there's nothing shady going on in their offices, again... naive. ENRON anyone?"

To assume that is naive. It isn't responsible to throw blanket accusations that are purely speculation.

Why do you hate big business? Because you don't own one? I have to suspect that if you were born into a family that was well vested in oil, your opinion would be much different. Don't hate on people simply because they have achieved what most others want. I own a business that grosses a modest 4 million a year. To companies that only gross 50,000/yr., they probably look at me as big business, but I certainly hope they don't begrudge my company only because I'm bigger than they are.

Big business and big government are really not comparable. Big business can be powerful and corrupt in the wrong hands, as can big government. However, big business can in no way affect your every day life to the extent big government can do. A large and intrusive government can lead to the loss of freedoms and rights. A bit more serious than potAto, potato.

No Sports here.....

You just explained it!

You ARE big business! Absolute power corrupts absolutely and people in power will ALWAYS do ANYTHING to keep it. People who have the power have done it for longer than you or I have been alive and will continue to.

Congrats on your business... seriously, I know it takes ALOT of work. But don't forget where you started, or the people that were there before you started.

To say "A large and intrusive government can lead to the loss of freedoms and rights" is paranoia. Are you kidding me? Seriously? you can actually think that America will ever travel down that road in our grandkid's lifetime, let alone later? Come on!

I ask any CEO, business owner, rich person (and I've met quite a few) this "How do you act when noone's around? What do you think about? How do you look at your employees or the guy standing in the road with a sign that says "will work for food"? Do you mock them... curse them... pity them? When you get your big bonus check, what's the first thing you want to do with that money?

I'm not a bleeding heart liberal or tree hugger, but I think that there are so many people that can do so much more with the money they have than waste time complaining about a tax cut being pulled back that may cost them $3,500 more a year in taxes .

I used to work in a medical system at the largest medical system in the country, and the CEO got a $7 million BONUS... BONUS!!!! For a year of work... what could have been done for all the people in the community that he lives with $7 million. Everyone deserves to be paid for their work, but a bonus that big, on top of his salary, is sad to me.

Overall I think our Govt does a decent job (compared to the rest of the world) and to complain about having to pay that little bit more compared to what I'm sure you already make seems petty. There will be other tax cuts down the road... maybe not while the Democrats you hate so much are in leadership, but eventually. I'm sure you'll manage until then.

No Sports here.....

See, there you go, throwing blanket accusations that are pure speculation. Power does not corrupt in all cases.  I've run my own company for almost 10 years now. 4 million a year is not big business. I only make about 75,000/yr. myself, as a salary. I'm rich by no means. I'm not corrupt and I take good care of my employees by paying 100% of their medical insurance. I don't take bonuses, ever. I also work about 15 hours a week at a local college here and donate the check to a homeless mission here. Absolute power corrupts absolutely is a much over used quote by business school professors trying to sound profound. It's abused in its meaning and people would be well served to forget it.

Loss of rights and freedoms is not paranoia. They start small and grow larger over time. Who makes the choice for you to wear a seat belt in your car? Who tells you where you can and cannot smoke a cigarette? Who tells your kids they can't say the pledge of allegiance at school anymore because it has the word God in it? These are just a few examples and it will get worse. They're after your right to own a firearm. They're after your right to publicly express your religion. I could go on for hours, but you should be getting the point.

If you think that government run programs are pretty well ran, you are in the minority my friend. They are all filled with so much red tape it isn't even funny. Do you know anyone that has ever tried to get disability? It's a nightmare. It can take months if not years. Imagine now what it may be like to get approval for a particular surgery from government run health care. You may be dead by the time it's approved. This may be speculation on my part, but do you really want to gamble with yours. or your kids lives? I don't.

No Sports here.....

Loss of rights and freedoms is not paranoia. They start small and grow larger over time. Who makes the choice for you to wear a seat belt in your car? Who tells you where you can and cannot smoke a cigarette? Who tells your kids they can't say the pledge of allegiance at school anymore because it has the word God in it? These are just a few examples and it will get worse. They're after your right to own a firearm. They're after your right to publicly express your religion. I could go on for hours, but you should be getting the point.

Wear a seatbelt? I personally have seen lives SAVED by wearing them and LOST by not. If it takes a law to get through to the stupid, uneducated people to buckle their kids and loved ones, even if they choose not to themselves, so be it. I wouldn't consider wearing a seatbelt infringing on my rights, either. Have you actually ever gotten a ticket for not wearing one, other than tacked onto a speeding ticket or an accident? I haven't

Smoke cigarettes. I'm glad you mentioned that. I LOVE the fact that people are being told were they can and can't smoke. It's about time. Smoking is not a right, it's a priviledge, a choice... especially at work. I would think that I have more of a right to breath clean air than a smoker does to smoke anywhere they want. You like to spew what the constitution says... where does it guarentee the right to smoke?

...and my kids still say the pledge of allegiance at school

Oh, and for someone who like to use the consitution, you should know that the right to "bear arms" as mentioned is EXTREMELY out of date when compared to the current society and laws. That was put in to guarentee the right to assemble militias should the new govt try to take over and become similar to the body they were trying to get rid of. That and guns were a necessity of life for most americans that had to hunt to eat (farmers, woodsman, etc). To try to apply the meaning of our forefathers then WITHOUT using the ammendment process is ridiculous. That's what ammendments are for, to adjust with the changing times and needs of the people. BTW, how's the NRA taking Heston's death? I always liked the guy, though I thought his methods were a little melodramatic... go figure, an actor.

Besides, nobody is trying to take my rights to own a gun away, they are trying to institute some control and responsibility. I have to be licensed to drive a car and have said car registered. There is no reason the same shouldn't apply to guns. It absolutely should.

I said I thought our Govt was run pretty well, compared to others. If you want to pick, I agree individual programs could be run better, but that's par for the course in most things. There's always room for improvement somewhere. Just keep in mind, most of the programs we have today have come from the REPUBLICAN president and legislature we've had, until the recent shift in Congress.

But alas, my grandparents remind me of all the problems they had with the govt in their day, and it continues with me... such is life. As long as we have a democratic system, someone somewhere won't get their way and will complain... that's the nature of the beast. The minority lose, at least in their eyes.

Kudos, though, my friend, that you take care of your employees. It's rare... very rare.

No Sports here.....

To answer your questions, yes I have been ticketed for only the seatbelt. Schools here do not say the pledge anymore because of government induced bans, as in many states. If yours hasn't yet, lucky you, but it's coming.

All of your arguments indicate to me you are missing the point, so I won't debate it further with you. Thank you for responding though. Picking the political thoughts of others never fails to amaze me. Thanks again!